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with looks or one short sentence. He does in a few sentences what people had spent pages doing before. So he's breaking out of convention, but he's trapped by it, because he's quite a bourgeois man in many ways. He's very trapped by money, although he never had much.
This film will be far less syrupy than the Munch film. I don't identify with Strindberg the way I did with Munch, and there's no point in doing the same film again anyway. I've done a lot of developing since I made the Munch film; that was in 1973. And I really want to work with all this media stuff now. I want to create abysses into which people can fall and tumble where they want; if I can ever do that in a film, then I'll stop making filmsI'll have arrived. I do think there's a self-terminating point. I'm not in love with film anymore, and that's one of the most liberating things that's happened to me. I don't need it as a means of expression. In fact, if I could be a professional researcher for the rest of my life, I'd probably do that. I love doing research. Film is not my "high" anymore.
MacDonald:
I would hate to see you out of film. Your films are some of the few that are based on serious research. The Munch film is as powerful as it is, partly because you clearly know as much about Munch as anybody alive. The film is not a fantasy about Munch, it's an attempt to deal with material that took a tremendous effort to compile.
Watkins:
But, you understand the trap there, which is the trap we've been talking about. The more I become an "expert," the more I am creating for people their image of Edvard Munch. A well-known historian of Strindberg (he's a very nice guy who's been very helpful) said to me, "Well, I must say"and he meant this as a compliment"I must say, your
Edvard Munch
is what Edvard Munch is to me now.'' I was really happy that he said that, but I thought to myself afterwards, "Ugh! God!"
MacDonald:
I think you're being too hard on him and yourself.
Watkins:
Oh, I'm not being hard on him. I'm really glad he said it. But, still, because I am worried about the
whole
role of the media, I cannot lift myself out as some kind of elitist who's somehow found the eternal secret of being the perfect researcher and the perfect complex filmmaker, who's removed from this. I'm not. I'm right in the middle of it.
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Part 2
MacDonald:
Many people would say it's madness for you to think you can complete this new project [what was to become
The Journey
]. I know of no film that has been substantially funded by the donations of individuals in various countries.